33 replies to this topic

[Bill Casey]

Luke,

Quote

Vatsim has a reputation of Big Brother watching and waiting to jump on anyone who is slightly less than perfect.

Put that in context and get back on topic. That is the relevant point and is one of the biggest reasons new people get scared about Vatsim. That is first hand knowledge incidentally.

[Luke Cunningham]

Bill Casey, on 23 August 2011 - 07:10 PM, said:

Luke,

Quote

Vatsim has a reputation of Big Brother watching and waiting to jump on anyone who is slightly less than perfect.

Put that in context and get back on topic. That is the relevant point and is one of the biggest reasons new people get scared about Vatsim. That is first hand knowledge incidentally.

Bill

Your first post spoke about ATC 'bullying' new pilots. When Callum instructed any witnesses of that to get intouch with a Supervisor, you jump on the "stop waving your [auto-mod: lovely language] about" bandwagon. Why? He is posting for the benefit of those new pilots, not to ban them.

[Graham Mitchell]

Hi William,

You should never be embarassed about not understanding a controller. It is the controllers responsibility
to be clear and concise. Remember that controller undergo training and sometimes they need a reminder that speaking quickly does not always get the desired result. It is far better to speak at a reasonable pace and be understood first time and avoid the need to repeat. If the controller is difficult to understand then the controller should be embarassed - not you !

The in crowd thing, I am glad to say, has improved IMO over the past year or two. Thanks to the staff and moderators. It perhaps still exists to a certain degree but nothning like it was.

I for one am not afraid of being laughed at on Vatsim. I have crashed a few times, usualy when trying something new (like a simulated bird strike on departure) with the permission of ATC. Do not be afraid to learn. Once you master it no one laughs I can assure you.

If you get lost at ANY airport ask for progressive taxi. I can understand being refused at Heathrow if there is only 1 controller on but in cases like that you may get 'Stand of Choice'. Progressive taxi is a service that all controllers can provide. In my view, there is no excuse for refusal by a GND or TWR controller. That being said, this would create excessive work load if the controller were very busy and everyone asked for progressive.

[Callum McLoughlin VATUK6]

Bill Casey, on 23 August 2011 - 06:29 PM, said:

Callum McLoughlin, on 23 August 2011 - 02:35 PM, said:

If you ever see this happening, please contact a supervisor - we're quite interested in CoC A10 violations.

Another valid point re member retention. Making this place look less intimidating to new guys by cutting out this constant waving of the Discipline Flag. Vatsim has a reputation of Big Brother watching and waiting to jump on anyone who is slightly less than perfect. Waving it all the time, as you do, isn't helpful. Use it appropriately.

We don't wave the discipline flag, we wave the education flag - education and communication go hand in hand. I agree that there is a misconception that SUPs are here to ban people - that simply is not the whole truth. Controllers are often feared by new users and as such if they get a bad attitude from one of them then it's bad news for everybody.

We're often the first contact new people have with VATSIM (it's one of the major things we do online - I've helped hundreds of pilots in my time so far, and would not be surprised if other SUPs had done even more). We go above and beyond to help them (as we do with everybody else) to ensure they have a good time and avoid being suspended - this usually means upsetting the odd ATC for a short time but we always go the extra mile with these guys.

Unfortunately most new guys don't know where they can go for help when there are controllers or other pilots causing issues for them, and as such we spend a lot of time letting people know how we are available for their needs. My post that you have quoted is specifically for controllers who *know* what others should and should not be doing in terms of attitude and inclusiveness - you'd be surprised how many keep quiet or are unsure of whether there is a problem with it. Plus since most new guys don't know what Supervisors are, they usually don't feel intimidated by us - from what I've experienced so far, (which is quite a lot on the "new pilot" front) most I've personally spoken to don't feel as if there is a big brother society, even if you do.

For example, yesterday I responded to a WALLOP from an ATC in South America who was demanding I removed a pilot because of his flight plan being invalid, after doing some digging I found out that the pilot was brand new to the network and was unsure what to do. I spend an hour and a half with this guy, who spoke very little English (hence I had to use Portuguese translating websites) to try and get across some links and information that would help him) to get started - that is a standard supervising story and nothing particularly out of the ordinary. Communicating the good work that we do could be improved, but I just want to demonstrate that we are NOT here just to go out and ban people, nor is it something we want to do.

That said, I'll continue to tackle people who are unwelcoming to new users and I would encourage you, and everybody else to do the same - tackle does not mean suspend, it means question then inform.

Edited by Callum McLoughlin, 23 August 2011 - 07:35 PM.

[Wycliffe Barrett VATUK3]

And on that very good post from Callum could I ask we get back on track. Member Rentention suggestions.

Wycliffe

[Graham Mitchell]

Of course there are the people that you just can't help.

Recntly had a new pilot file for a destination airport that was not recognised by ES in the flight strip
nor was it recognised by ATCA.

Asked the pilot to stand-by and I would check. I no sooner started to check out the airport and he promptly disconnected. It turned out the airport in question was valid. If he had just waited for 30 seconds he would have got his clearance. I would like to say the this is the exception rather than the rule, however that would not be correct.
What ever happened to common courtesy and manners. No point throwing the rattle out of the pram, nobody wins !! If he was incorrect then he might have learned something and the fact he was correct might have boosted his confidence.

I wholy agree we must all do our bit to encourage new pilots and show understanding and patience and be as helpful as possible but it does not always work.

Perhaps another argument for new pilots nights flying a set route with a briefing. At least they would have an idea
of what to expect and perhaps if a few experienced pilots led the way the new guys would get an idea of what to
expect from the proceeding aircraft. Or even a buddy system might have some merit.

All the best, Graham

[Mark Bennett]

Maybe offer regular training groups? Maybe do VFR, Light IFR (regional prop work) and Short Haul big tin with guides for each.

I'd recommend turboprops as the slower speed means less pressure and more time to talk through the steps, ie an ATR from Exeter to Edinbrugh would take about 60-90 mins, is Semi automatic to avoid scaring the FMC types too much (FMC LNAV - Advisory VNAV) and involves ATSOCAS leaving Exeter and STARs inbound ^.^

[Wycliffe Barrett VATUK3]

Hi all

Without trying to minimise all thats been said here it looks as if we are falling into two seperate schools of thought here. I am not making any propositions here or even hard and fast titles this is just what is coming to mind based on the posts so far.

1) pilot mentoring
2) new member information dissemination/education.

When I do a more detailed examination perhaps some other stuff will become apparent. I know there is the new ATCO's to look at but that will be later.

carry on chaps, we still have until friday.

Wycliffe

[William Hobbs]

Wycliffe,
Would like to send you an email with some more thoughts but cannot get access to your email address.
Bill

[Nathan Donnelly]

William Hobbs, on 24 August 2011 - 07:33 PM, said:

Wycliffe,
Would like to send you an email with some more thoughts but cannot get access to your email address.
Bill

wycliffe.barrett[AT]vatsim-uk.co.uk - I think :P

Nathan

[Wycliffe Barrett VATUK3]

or vatuk3[at]vatsim-uk.co.uk

Look forward to your email.

Wycliffe

[William Hobbs]

Sent an email to that address Wycliffe and it has been bounced back to me saying I do not have permission to use that.
Bill

[Daniel Parkin]

The main vatsim.net website needs a bloody great banner saying "New pilots click here" that links to webpage that covers the basics, and only the basics, of IFR in content not more than a single sheet of A4 equivalent.

[Wycliffe Barrett VATUK3]

Thank you for all your comments, they will certainly help in formulating a New member retention strategy.

This thread is now locked off.

Wycliffe